1 BEFORE THE PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION OF OHIO 2 - - - 3 In the Matter of the : Application of Duke Energy: 4 Ohio, Inc., for Approval : Case No. 16-0576-EL-POR of Its Energy Efficiency : 5 and Peak Demand Reduction : Program Portfolio Plan. : 6 7 - - - 8 PROCEEDINGS 9 before Mr. Richard Bulgrin, Attorney Examiner, at the 10 Public Utilities Commission of Ohio, 180 East Broad 11 Street, Room 11-D, Columbus, Ohio, called at 12 10:00 a.m. on Wednesday, March 15, 2017. 13 - - - 14 VOLUME II 15 - - - 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 ARMSTRONG & OKEY, INC. 222 East Town Street, Second Floor 23 Columbus, Ohio 43215-5201 (614) 224-9481 - (800) 223-9481 24 Fax - (614) 224-5724 25 - - - 209 1 APPEARANCES: 2 Duke Energy Ohio, Inc. By Ms. Elizabeth H. Watts 3 and Ms. Amy B. Spiller 139 East Fourth Street 4 Cincinnati, Ohio 45201 5 On behalf of the Applicant. 6 Bruce J. Weston, Consumers' Counsel By Mr. Christopher Healey, 7 Assistant Consumers' Counsel 10 West Broad Street, Suite 1800 8 Columbus, Ohio 43215-3485 9 On behalf of the Residential Customers of Duke Energy Ohio, Inc. 10 Ohio Partners for Affordable Energy 11 By Ms. Colleen L. Mooney P.O. Box 12451 12 Columbus, Ohio 43212-2451 13 On behalf of the Ohio Partners for Affordable Energy. 14 Mike DeWine, Ohio Attorney General 15 By Mr. William L. Wright, Section Chief 16 Mr. John H. Jones and Ms. Natalia Messenger, 17 Assistant Attorneys General Public Utilities Section 18 30 East Broad Street, 16th floor Columbus, Ohio 43215 19 On behalf of the Staff of the Public 20 Utilities Commission of Ohio. 21 Environmental Law & Policy Center By Ms. Madeline Fleisher 22 21 West Broad Street, Suite 500 Columbus, Ohio 43215 23 On behalf of the Environmental Law & 24 Policy Center. 25 210 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 Carpenter Lipps & Leland LLP By Ms. Angela M. Paul Whitfield 3 280 North High Street, Suite 1300 Columbus, Ohio 43215 4 On behalf of The Kroger Company. 5 Ohio Environmental Council 6 By Ms. Miranda Leppla 1145 Chesapeake Avenue, Suite I 7 Columbus, Ohio 43212 8 On behalf of the Ohio Environmental Council and Environmental Defense Fund. 9 Ohio Hospital Association 10 By Mr. Richard Sites 155 East Broad Street 11 3rd Floor Columbus, Ohio 43215 12 Bricker & Eckler, LLP 13 By Mr. Devin Parram Mr. Dylan Borchers 14 and Mr. Matthew Warnock 100 South Third Street 15 Columbus, Ohio 43215-4291 16 On behalf of the Ohio Hospital Association. 17 Carpenter Lipps & Leland LLP 18 By Ms. Kimberly W. Bojko and Mr. James D. Perko, Jr. 19 280 North High Street, Suite 1300 Columbus, Ohio 43215 20 On behalf of The Ohio Manufacturers' 21 Association. 22 23 24 25 211 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 McNees, Wallace & Nurick LLC By Mr. Matthew Pritchard 3 and Mr. Frank Darr 21 East State Street, 17th Floor 4 Columbus, Ohio 43215 5 On behalf of the Industrial Energy Users of Ohio. 6 Law Office of Robert Dove 7 By Mr. Robert Dove P.O. Box 13442 8 Columbus, Ohio 43213 9 On behalf of the Natural Resources Defense Council. 10 - - - 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 212 1 INDEX 2 - - - 3 Witness Page 4 Timothy J. Duff Direct Examination by Ms. Watts 216 5 Cross-Examination by Mr. Healey 217 6 - - - 7 Duke Exhibits Identified Admitted 8 13 Rebuttal Testimony of 216 221 Timothy J. Duff 9 - - - 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 213 1 Wednesday Morning Session, 2 March 15, 2017. 3 - - - 4 EXAMINER BULGRIN: All right. Let's get 5 started then. 6 Good morning. This is the -- I don't 7 know which day of hearing this is, hopefully the last 8 day of hearing, in Case 16-576-EL-POR, being the 9 Application of Duke Energy Ohio for Approval of Its 10 Energy Efficiency and Peak Demand Reduction Program 11 Portfolio Plan. My name is Dick Bulgrin. I'm the 12 Attorney Examiner assigned to conduct the hearing 13 this morning. 14 And I guess we should take appearances 15 just since it's been a while since we've done that. 16 So, for the company. 17 MS. WATTS: Okay. Thank you, your Honor. 18 Elizabeth Watts on behalf of Duke Energy Ohio, 139 19 East Fourth Street, Cincinnati, Ohio. 20 EXAMINER BULGRIN: And OCC. 21 MR. HEALEY: Good morning, your Honor. 22 Christopher Healey representing the residential 23 customers of Duke Energy on behalf of Bruce Weston, 24 Ohio Consumers' Counsel, 10 West Broad Street, Suite 25 1800, Columbus, Ohio 43215. Thank you. 214 1 MR. PERKO: Good morning, your Honor. 2 James D. Perko, Jr. and Kimberly W. Bojko on behalf 3 of OMAEG, with the law firm of Carpenter Lipps & 4 Leland, 280 North High Street, Suite 1300, Columbus, 5 Ohio 43215. 6 And I've also been asked to make the 7 appearance of Angela Paul Whitfield, also with the 8 law firm -- on behalf of Kroger, also with the law 9 firm of Carpenter Lipps & Leland. 10 MR. SITES: Good morning, your Honor. 11 Richards Sites on behalf of the Ohio Hospital 12 Association, 155 East Broad Street, Columbus, Ohio 13 43215. And from the law firm of Bricker & Eckler, 14 100 South Third Street, Columbus, Ohio 43215, Matthew 15 Warnock, Dylan Borchers, and Devin Parram. Thank 16 you. 17 EXAMINER BULGRIN: Thank you. 18 MR. JONES: Good morning, your Honor. On 19 behalf of the staff of the Public Utilities 20 Commission of Ohio, Ohio Attorney General Mike 21 DeWine, Assistant Attorney General John Jones, 30 22 East Broad Street, Columbus, Ohio 43215. 23 MS. MOONEY: On behalf of Ohio Partners 24 for Affordable Energy, I'm Colleen Mooney, P.O. Box 25 12451, Columbus, Ohio. 215 1 MR. DOVE: On behalf of the Natural 2 Resources Defense Council, Robert Dove. NRDC is at 3 20 North Wacker Drive, Suite 1600, Chicago, Illinois 4 60606. 5 MS. FLEISHER: Good morning, your Honor. 6 Madeline Fleisher on behalf of the Environmental Law 7 and Policy Center, 21 West Broad Street, Suite 500, 8 Columbus, Ohio 43215. 9 MS. LEPPLA: Good morning, your Honor. 10 Miranda Leppla for the Ohio Environmental Council and 11 Environmental Defense Fund, 11445 Chesapeake Avenue, 12 Suite I, Columbus, Ohio 43212. 13 EXAMINER BULGRIN: All right. Thank you 14 all for attending on this coldest day of 2017 so far, 15 I believe. 16 We have one witness total? 17 MS. WATTS: That's correct, your Honor. 18 EXAMINER BULGRIN: Okay. You may return 19 to the stand. 20 Mr. Duff, I remind you that you are under 21 oath. 22 MS. WATTS: Your Honor, I placed on the 23 bench a copy of what I would ask be marked as Duke 24 Energy Ohio Exhibit 13. 25 EXAMINER BULGRIN: All righty. It will 216 1 be so marked. 2 (EXHIBIT MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 3 - - - 4 TIMOTHY J. DUFF 5 being first duly sworn, as prescribed by law, was 6 examined and testified as follows: 7 DIRECT EXAMINATION 8 By Ms. Watts: 9 Q. And, Mr. Duff, I've also placed in front 10 of you, prior to your arrival, a document which 11 should now be marked as Duke Energy Ohio Exhibit 13, 12 and could you identify that, please. 13 A. It is the rebuttal testimony and two 14 attachments that were filed in this proceeding on 15 March 7th originally, and the one attachment was 16 inadvertently omitted and it was refiled, I believe, 17 on March 9th. 18 Q. Thank you. And is this document your 19 testimony that you caused to be prepared for this 20 proceeding? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And is it true and accurate to the best 23 of your knowledge? 24 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes. 25 Q. And if I were to ask you the questions 217 1 contained therein again today, would your answers be 2 the same? 3 A. Yes. 4 MS. WATTS: Mr. Duff is available for 5 cross-examination. 6 - - - 7 CROSS-EXAMINATION 8 By Mr. Healey: 9 Q. Good morning, Mr. Duff. 10 A. Good morning. 11 Q. You've read PUCO Witness Donlon's 12 testimony in this case, correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And you were here last week when he was 15 cross-examined? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Can you turn to page 4 of your rebuttal 18 testimony, please? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And starting on line 10, there's a 21 question, and your position is that under 22 Mr. Donlon's proposed cost cap it would be 23 insufficient to allow Duke to meet its state mandates 24 for energy efficiency, correct? 25 A. Given the projected program budget for 218 1 the portfolio, yes. 2 Q. Do you have a copy of the amended 3 application in front of you? 4 A. No, I don't. 5 MR. HEALEY: Your Honor, may I approach 6 with a copy? 7 EXAMINER BULGRIN: Sure. 8 MR. HEALEY: This has been previously 9 marked, I believe, Duke Energy Exhibit 3, so it 10 should already be in the record. 11 EXAMINER BULGRIN: Okay. 12 Q. Can you turn to page 12 of the amended 13 application. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. On page 12 there is a Table 3 which 16 includes projected 2017, '18, and '19 energy 17 efficiency benchmark percentages and cumulative 18 required energy efficiency savings MWh; do you see 19 that? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. Now in your testimony when you state that 22 Duke will be unable to meet its energy efficiency 23 mandates under PUCO staff's proposed cost cap, are 24 these the mandates you're referring to? 25 A. Those are the mandates, yes, the 219 1 projected mandates. 2 Q. And you are aware, under Senate Bill 310, 3 that nonresidential customers are permitted to opt 4 out of Duke's programs beginning January 1, 2017, 5 correct? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. And do these projected cumulative 8 mandates in Table 3 include any projections for 9 opt-outs? 10 A. No, they do not. 11 Q. Can you turn to page 7 of your rebuttal 12 testimony, please. 13 A. I'm there. 14 Q. And on line 21 you state that "the 15 Company believes any cap imposed should be 16 proportional to the one approved for AEP Ohio in 17 Case No. 16-574-EL-POR." Do you see that? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Now, you're aware that AEP Ohio's cap was 20 approved as part of an unopposed stipulation, 21 correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And just so we're clear, Duke's 24 stipulation as filed does not include any similar 25 cost cap, correct? 220 1 A. The stipulation does not, no. 2 Q. And let's turn to page 8 of your 3 testimony; continuing in this same question. You 4 calculate a cap, this is on line 6 to 7, you 5 calculate a cap of about $52 million which you 6 believe would be consistent with the cap the PUCO 7 approved for AEP, correct? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. And I just want to have a quick 10 clarification. The question on line 14 says: "Do 11 you believe that the Commission should approve Duke 12 Energy Ohio's recommendation?" 13 "Yes." 14 The recommendation you're referring to 15 here is the recommendation for a 5.4 percent cap 16 of about $52 million, correct? 17 A. Yeah. Just to clarify, so what I'm 18 saying is while the company doesn't agree with an 19 overall cost cap; if the Commission were to impose 20 one, we believe it should follow the company's 21 recommendation with respect to the percentage to 22 apply to operating revenues if, in fact, they choose 23 to implement it based off of what we describe as kind 24 of being an inaccurate baseline methodology. 25 MR. HEALEY: That's all I have, your 221 1 Honor. 2 EXAMINER BULGRIN: Okay. 3 MR. JONES: May I have one second, your 4 Honor? 5 EXAMINER BULGRIN: Sure. 6 MR. JONES: Your Honor, staff has no 7 questions. 8 EXAMINER BULGRIN: Okay. Very good. 9 MS. MOONEY: No questions. 10 EXAMINER BULGRIN: Okay. Anything 11 further, Ms. Watts? 12 MS. WATTS: I don't believe so. 13 EXAMINER BULGRIN: I think you're done 14 then. Thank you. 15 Okay. And there's nothing further in 16 terms of the company -- 17 MS. WATTS: Nothing further, your Honor. 18 EXAMINER BULGRIN: Okay. So any 19 objections to the admission of Company Exhibit 13? 20 It will be so admitted. 21 (EXHIBIT ADMITTED INTO EVIDENCE.) 22 EXAMINER BULGRIN: And I believe the 23 matter will be submitted upon the record. We need to 24 set a briefing schedule. Let's go off the record 25 then for a minute. 222 1 (Discussion off the record.) 2 EXAMINER BULGRIN: Let's go back on just 3 to note that the parties have agreed that initial 4 briefs will be submitted March 31st, and reply briefs 5 will be due April 7th. And if there's nothing 6 further, then this case is submitted to the 7 Commission and the record of evidence closed. Thank 8 you. 9 (Thereupon, at 10:12 a.m., the hearing 10 was adjourned.) 11 - - - 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 223 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I do hereby certify that the foregoing is a 3 true and correct transcript of the proceedings taken 4 by me in this matter on Wednesday, March 15, 2017, 5 and carefully compared with my original stenographic 6 notes. 7 8 _______________________________ Carolyn M. Burke, Registered 9 Professional Reporter, and Notary Public in and for the 10 State of Ohio. 11 My commission expires July 17, 2018. 12 - - - 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25