1 1 BEFORE THE PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION OF OHIO 2 3 RONALD F. PUGSLEY, ) ) 4 Complainant, ) ) 5 vs. ) Case No. ) 20-1365-GA-CSS 6 THE EAST OHIO GAS ) COMPANY D/B/A DOMINION ) 7 ENERGY OHIO, ) ) 8 Respondent. ) 9 10 11 PROCEEDINGS 12 13 14 Remote videoconference hearing before Attorney Examiner Daniel E. Fullin 15 taken via Zoom 16 on August 9, 2022, at 1:04 p.m. 17 18 19 Reported by: Carmen G. Maley 20 21 22 -=0=- 23 24 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 Ronald F. Pugsley 2253 Arcadia Drive 3 Lima, Ohio 45805 4 Complainant, Pro Se. 5 Christopher T. Kennedy 6 WHITT STURTEVANT, LLP 88 East Broad Street 7 Suite 1590 Columbus, Ohio 43215 8 614.224.3912 kennedy@whitt-sturtevant.com 9 on behalf of the Respondent, 10 East Ohio Gas Company D/B/A Dominion Energy Ohio. 11 12 13 -=0=- 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 3 1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION 2 FOR THE COMPLAINANT: PAGE 3 RONALD F. PUGSLEY 7 4 5 6 7 INDEX OF EXAMINATION 8 FOR THE RESPONDENT: PAGE 9 JOE DENT DIRECT BY MR. KENNEDY: 49 10 REDIRECT BY MR. KENNEDY: 60 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 4 1 INDEX OF COMPLAINANT'S EXHIBITS 2 EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION REFERRED ADMITTED 3 1 Map 39 48 4 2 Letter Denoting Five 39 48 Contractors 5 3 8.19.19 Letter 39 48 6 4 Photographs 40 48 7 8 9 INDEX OF RESPONDENT'S EXHIBITS 10 EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION REFERRED ADMITTED 11 1.0 Direct Testimony of 50 60 J. Dent With 12 Attachments 1.1 Through 1.4 13 14 [Exhibits retained by counsel] 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 5 1 -=0=- 2 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: I'll start by going 3 on the record saying, the Commission has 4 assigned for hearing at this time and by this 5 method a hearing in case number 20-1365-GA-CSS, 6 which is the matter of the complaint of Ronald 7 F. Pugsley, complainant, versus the East Ohio 8 Gas Company D/B/A Dominion Energy Ohio. 9 My name is Daniel E. Fullin. I'm the 10 attorney examiner assigned to hear this case. I 11 will begin by having appearances. I'll start 12 with Mr. Pugsley. Mr. Pugsley, if you would 13 please identify yourself and give your name and 14 address for the record. 15 MR. PUGSLEY: Ronald F. Pugsley. 2253 16 Arcadia Avenue, Lima, Ohio 43085 [sic]. 17 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: We'll have the 18 appearance now on behalf of Dominion. 19 MR. KENNEDY: Good afternoon. This is 20 Christopher Kennedy of Whitt Sturtevant, LLP. 21 We are outside counsel for Dominion Energy Ohio. 22 Our address is 88 East Broad Street, Suite 1590, 23 Columbus, Ohio 43215. 24 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Do either of the 6 1 parties have any preliminary questions or other 2 things they want to bring up before we get into 3 the actual testimony today? I don't hear any 4 response, so I'll take it that we're ready to 5 proceed into the heart of the hearing, which is 6 the presentation of evidence by both sides. 7 Mr. Pugsley, I will explain a little bit 8 about how it normally goes and how I expect it 9 to go today. Because you are the Complainant, 10 you have the burden of proof in this case. So 11 you get to go first, in terms of presenting your 12 side of the case. The way I plan on doing that 13 is to let you call whatever witnesses that you 14 want to call, present any exhibits or documents 15 that you want to present, and that includes, and 16 what I'm expecting from prior talking to you, is 17 that your only witness will be yourself. Is 18 that correct today? 19 MR. PUGSLEY: Yes. I couldn't get a 20 lawyer. I tried Columbus, and no one took the 21 case. 22 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Okay. So you are 23 going to be representing yourself today. 24 MR. PUGSLEY: I didn't want to, but 7 1 that's the way it is I guess. 2 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: I'm going to allow 3 you to begin testifying, unless you have any 4 questions for me. Before you testify, I would 5 like to swear you in. I'll ask -- even though I 6 can't see it, I'm going to ask that you raise 7 your right hand. 8 MR. PUGSLEY: All right. My right hand 9 is raised. 10 RONALD F. PUGSLEY 11 called as a witness by the Complainant, being 12 first duly sworn, testifies as follows: 13 DIRECT EXAMINATION 14 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: You can put your 15 hand down. Now you are sworn in. So I'm going 16 hand the floor to you. This whole part of the 17 case is designed for you to present your 18 evidence that you want the Commission to 19 consider as evidence in the case in support of 20 your side of the case. You are pretty much 21 going to get a chance to do that without much 22 interruption. If we need something to be 23 clarified or something, we may ask you 24 questions, or if there's an objection to 8 1 something you ask, Mr. Kennedy can raise an 2 objection and I will make a ruling at the time. 3 The main focus of this part of the hearing is 4 for you to present what it is that you want to 5 present on your behalf. I'm expecting that you 6 will do that as a sworn-in witness. 7 To the extent you want to bring up any 8 exhibits or documents, we'll deal with that at 9 the time. But be sure and do that, if you have 10 documents that you want the Commission to take 11 into evidence in this case, at the point that 12 you want to talk about them, we'll talk about 13 them and you can identify them when the time 14 comes. For now, then, why don't you begin with 15 your testimony. 16 MR. PUGSLEY: The main thing about the 17 house is out in the county engineer's office, 18 which it shows Arcadia Avenue and Crayton 19 Avenue. 20 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: You are beginning by 21 talking about your exhibit? Do you want to -- 22 do you have it in front of you? Is this 23 something you want us to look at while you're 24 talking about it? 9 1 MR. PUGSLEY: Yeah. On each one of the 2 pictures that I sent to the company, and you 3 have the same pictures, and I have a set of 4 them, too. 5 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: I'm looking at 6 what's marked in the docket card as filed on the 7 2nd of August. It's labeled in the docket card 8 as correspondence and exhibits filed by -- on 9 behalf of Ronald Pugsley. 10 Mr. Kennedy, are you familiar with all 11 of those? 12 MR. KENNEDY: I am, Your Honor. We will 13 have a motion to strike one of those exhibits, 14 which we can entertain now or at some point. 15 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: We can probably do 16 it now, but I think I would rather wait until 17 the exhibit itself is being talked about, and 18 then before we go far into that you can raise 19 your objection and we'll make a ruling on it 20 when he brings it up as something he's 21 introducing. 22 Getting back to you, Mr. Pugsley, I 23 think you started talking about what I see as 24 the first picture of the various pictures and 10 1 documents that you presented. It seems to be 2 a -- it's marked Allen County real estate -- 3 Real American Strength, Allen County GIS. Is 4 that the document you're talking about? 5 MR. PUGSLEY: Yeah. And it shows lot 6 ten where everything was dug up and three holes 7 I have explained on the pictures that I had sent 8 to you -- 9 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Okay. So -- 10 MR. PUGSLEY: -- but that's where all 11 the damage happened, the three holes beside the 12 road, two was eight feet long, one was six feet 13 long. At the end of the six-foot hole, both the 14 Dominion and Buckeye pipeline went under the 15 road there to the other side. So that's where 16 they had the three holes, and that was over 17 approximately 32 feet of the area there. 18 Then the rest of it, they dug it up, and 19 you had a big dump truck that I knew would carry 20 at least ten tons, and there was six of them 21 that I seen. But that started happening for the 22 dump truck on May the 7th, 2017 and ended up May 23 the 11th, which was Friday. In between this 24 time, I was in rehab Monday, Wednesday, and 11 1 Friday, so I can't tell you for sure if they 2 took in more truckloads than that, except on 3 Friday they took away the dirt that was supposed 4 to be in those holes. 5 So they just opened holes, and the 6 police -- I went to the police department, and 7 they got in touch with Dominion, and they 8 started to fill in the three holes then. But I 9 expected that they was going to bring back the 10 rest of the dirt, but that didn't happen. I was 11 told that the dirt was being stored and would be 12 back. At the end of the job, the guy said he 13 was a job checker, and I finally found out that 14 he went -- well, he took his information to, 15 let's see, Leslie Ruppert. And I tried to get 16 in touch with her from the 15th of May until 17 this happened here in 2019. And, finally, I was 18 able to talk to her. But she was supposed to 19 call me about the damage and so forth, but she 20 didn't. 21 So I called her. And she said that 22 things has changed. And she said when I said, 23 oh, because Dominion wants to change from 2017 24 to 2014, and she just said I've got to go along 12 1 with the company. But at that time she also 2 said that she had to make a trip to Akron on my 3 case. So that's as much as I can tell you. So 4 I thought that all this stuff was over with. 5 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Well, let me ask you 6 about the first page that you are presenting 7 itself. 8 MR. PUGSLEY: The one with Allen County 9 on the top? 10 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Right. You 11 submitted, I think, 18 different pages, so I 12 don't understand whether this is supposed to be 13 all one exhibit or these various exhibits. It's 14 not very clearly identified to me which exhibit 15 is which or what each is supposed to depict. 16 So let's just start with the first one, 17 which is the one page, it looks to be a GIS map 18 with a yellow note attached to it, or on top of 19 it. Is there anything that goes with that or is 20 that supposed to be its own exhibit? 21 MR. PUGSLEY: That's where they took all 22 the dirt away and the three holes and where at 23 the end of the six-foot hole they -- 24 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: I want to understand 13 1 how it is that you think this describes that. 2 How did you put this exhibit together? 3 MR. PUGSLEY: Well, I just took pictures 4 hoping it would show you what happened when they 5 took away all that dirt, and that created a 6 trough which ended up -- that created the flood 7 of my house. 8 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: You said you -- 9 well, I don't want to quote ya'. I want to 10 understand, did you take this picture, or how -- 11 MR. PUGSLEY: All those pictures that 12 has marked number 1 through 10. 13 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: But we're talking 14 about the first picture, which is like a map. 15 MR. PUGSLEY: This one here comes from 16 the engineer's office. 17 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Okay. You are 18 submitting it as some kind of evidence to show 19 the nature of the damage; is that why you are 20 presenting this? 21 MR. PUGSLEY: Well, it doesn't show 22 anything, but you use a magnifier and you can 23 see a little of it. These others show where all 24 those trees went that -- 14 1 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: I don't want to talk 2 about the other ones. I want to talk about 3 these one at a time. The first is one is from 4 the county engineer's office. 5 MR. PUGSLEY: My house is right there, 6 and you see that's a barrier wall around the 7 house, which I put up so that it wouldn't get 8 flooded for the third time. But that was too 9 late, it already wore out so much of the lawn 10 that held it together -- 11 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: I'm supposed to see 12 a retaining wall on the Allen -- 13 MR. PUGSLEY: -- never had a flood, but 14 that was after that flooded, because of the 15 ditch that starts at the end of my drive that 16 goes, curves over by where the house is. There 17 is a stormwater collector there. So they stored 18 the dump truck when they took away all that 19 dirt, that was supposed to go in the holes. I 20 understand that the outfit that done the work 21 was from Van Wert. But I called the excavating 22 contractor there, but they wouldn't give me 23 names. They said that they could give it to a 24 inspector or a law officer or PUCO. I wasn't 15 1 certain whether Cindy Mack had been in contact 2 with them or not. 3 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: This is your chance 4 to tell your side of the story -- 5 MR. PUGSLEY: Yeah. 6 THE REPORTER: Whoa, whoa, whoa -- 7 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: -- not to speculate 8 about what Cindy Mack may have told you. You 9 are supposed to let me know what you know about 10 your case that you can present to the Commission 11 so they can understand from your own testimony 12 what happened in this case. 13 MR. PUGSLEY: Well, I talked, you know, 14 about everything the previous company, that was 15 Ohio Gas Company, that they had been on the lot 16 a few times over the years. But that was to let 17 you know what was going on. This one here don't 18 let you know anything. Mr. Allen of Buckeye 19 Pipeline told me what was going on. 20 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Let me just suggest 21 to you that you are telling me things that you 22 may or may not have, for the most part, maybe 23 you have described previously in your complaint 24 on your various things that you filed in the 16 1 case. I think it would benefit you, and I think 2 it's important that I understand the whole 3 situation in what you present today. 4 MR. PUGSLEY: I know I figured that I 5 got a ruined house and nothing's going to be 6 done, but I guess we'll have to see. You can 7 see there's a barrier wall around my house. 8 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: I don't know where 9 I'm supposed to see this. 10 MR. PUGSLEY: Well, do you see going 11 around my house and that was -- 12 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Are you still on the 13 first picture? 14 MR. PUGSLEY: Yeah. 15 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: What am I supposed 16 to see in this picture? 17 MR. PUGSLEY: Well, there's a barrier 18 wall that goes around the house. 19 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Which house are we 20 talking about? 21 MR. PUGSLEY: 2253 Arcadia -- you'll see 22 a white van there and a dark-colored pickup 23 truck. 24 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Okay. So is it the 17 1 one that's in a red square? I see three lines 2 demarking the lots, I assume. And one of them 3 is marked in red and gold, and I see two cars 4 parked there. Is that the one you are talking 5 about? So that's a photo -- satellite photo of 6 your house. Is that right? 7 MR. PUGSLEY: That's probably from an 8 aircraft. 9 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Okay. 10 MR. PUGSLEY: Yeah. Ten is where all 11 the damage was done, and that's where the trees 12 was ruined and so forth, all the trees. That 13 will be in one of the other pictures there. 14 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: We'll get to that 15 when we get to it. 16 MR. PUGSLEY: That just shows you where 17 all the damage was done that caused the flooding 18 at my house at 2253 Arcadia Avenue, and that's 19 the 9836. And the other ones are starting from 20 Crayton Avenue, number 8, and the next house is 21 on number 9, and then number 10 is where all the 22 damage took place. Of course, that's the 23 largest lot, then my property. The other 24 properties got flooded, also, when they messed 18 1 with the ditch -- 2 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: So the only lot in 3 this photo that is yours is lot number 9? 4 MR. PUGSLEY: I own lot 8, 9, 10, and 5 9836. 6 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Okay. You own those 7 four lots. 8 MR. PUGSLEY: The one is in the Garden 9 City area and the other is the Berryman 10 addition. 11 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Is the Garden City 12 area depicted in this photo? 13 MR. PUGSLEY: That's where my house is, 14 in the Garden City area. And 8, 9, and 10 is in 15 the Berryman addition. 16 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: I don't really 17 see -- just so I understand your exhibit, I 18 don't see where you're identifying lots 8, 9, 19 and 10. I do see in the middle of one of them 20 someone hand penciled in the number 10, so I 21 assume that's marked as lot 10. But I don't see 22 the identification of the other lots on this 23 photo. 24 MR. PUGSLEY: The first one, Crayton, 19 1 there is lot 8. And then you see a house and so 2 forth, that's lot 9. And then the lot with 3 nothing on it, except for it used to have a lot 4 of trees, is lot 10. And then my house. Where 5 you see the yellow vehicle and dark one, that's 6 9836. 7 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: If I'm looking at 8 this moving from right to left from this one 9 street those lots, it starts as 8, 9, and 10, 10 then the house -- the lot where your house is. 11 Is that right? 12 MR. PUGSLEY: That is -- my lot is where 13 you see the two vehicles in the driveway and one 14 is white, that's where I live. 15 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Where is lot 9836? 16 MR. PUGSLEY: That is where my house is. 17 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: So that's where your 18 house is. Okay. I see. The three lots that 19 are to the right of it on the photo are the 20 other three lots? 21 MR. PUGSLEY: Right. 22 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Okay. Well, again, 23 I would like to not continue asking you 24 questions but let you speak. I want you to 20 1 understand, don't assume that I know anything 2 about this case already. I want you to tell me 3 everything that you need to bring up, in terms 4 of what happened. And I don't want you to just 5 keep saying they or he, I want you to do what 6 you can to tell me and the Commission 7 understand. I do want to stay out of your way 8 and let you do the talking. 9 MR. PUGSLEY: Lot 10, they come into 10 that lot when I was in the hospital. They come 11 in on May 2nd, 2017. That's when they dug the 12 three holes, on May 3rd, 2017. They put in 13 replacement pipeline there. That was plastic 14 stuff, I guess. That was a feeder line for the 15 houses in the area. That was maybe the lady 16 that told me August 2019, and she seemed to know 17 all about it. She was the one that marked the 18 pipeline to be replaced on May the 7th, 2017, 19 when they started digging up everything and, you 20 know -- 21 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Again, I don't want 22 to interrupt you, but I do want you to note that 23 you have been pretty precise about certain 24 dates, but you keep using the word "they," and I 21 1 don't know who "they" is. 2 MR. PUGSLEY: Well, that was the lady 3 driving a Dominion pickup truck. And she 4 related to me the marked pipeline to be 5 replaced, which was 80 feet. But another one 6 that was driving a Dominion Energy pickup, he 7 called himself the job checker, and he said he 8 had other jobs to relate to. And when they took 9 that first load away that I seen, I just 10 happened to see that pickup truck on my land. 11 So I made it there. I just had a knee 12 replacement, so it took a little while to get to 13 that truck. And the guy was doing some writing, 14 and that's when he said he was the job checker. 15 I found out later that he was -- he had all 16 these papers. So I went to Leslie Ruppert. So 17 he said that they was storing the loads, and he 18 said there would be, at no doubt, at least 19 three, and it ended up being six. Because on 20 the Friday they took two loads away, the rest of 21 the week they had taken one load away each day. 22 So I couldn't drive a car because of my 23 knee, and my wife worked until 10:00 a.m. So I 24 tried to get up early. Her job, she works from 22 1 6:00 to 10:00 in the morning, so that she was 2 going to be home at 9:30, but she got held up. 3 So the truck left about ten minutes before she 4 got there. And I had no idea which way he went 5 because there's so many ways out that I couldn't 6 be sure which way that it went. So it was a 7 lost cause. 8 But later on, in August of 2019, that's 9 when that lady come out and went over it with me 10 and told me that management had told the 11 employees that, if anyone asked, that it was 12 2014, not 2017. Then a couple days later, a 13 gentleman called and asked if I was Ron Pugsley. 14 And I said, yeah. Then he says, do you know 15 what happened to all your dirt? I says, I wish 16 I did. And he says, you know that Dominion put 17 up a new building. I said, yeah, I seen that in 18 the newspaper. And he said, that's where your 19 dirt went for -- what do they call it, for 20 landscaping? So he said. That's where your 21 dirt is. 22 MR. KENNEDY: Mr. Fullin, the Company 23 would object to Mr. Pugsley's testimony about 24 what some unnamed person told him over the phone 23 1 as hearsay evidence. 2 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: I'll note the 3 objection that it's hearsay, I will also note, 4 as you did, so far it's an unidentified person 5 that -- 6 MR. PUGSLEY: Well, the people don't 7 give you their names, but they certainly was 8 driving Dominion pickups. So that's where some 9 of the information comes from, but I can't force 10 them to give me their names. I knew then that 11 it went up with their new building, and I talked 12 to, I think it was Cindy Mack on that. She had 13 said she would check it out, but I don't know 14 what happened to her. I never heard from her. 15 So there at the end of May or towards 16 the end of May, that was the first time that I 17 could actually get out there to look. And 18 that's when I found the trough that went the 19 hundred feet back in the lot towards the east, 20 in towards lot 9. And so my neighbor, he was 21 helping me, because I couldn't do a lot of 22 things, he said, yeah, you see the drop there. 23 And we measured the drop, and it come out two 24 and a half feet. And they were using some 24 1 stakes and a cord and a line level. So that 2 come out to a two-and-a-half-foot drop, and you 3 had at least 100 feet there. 4 So it showed very quickly if we had a 5 storm -- we hadn't had any storms yet, so I 6 think this would be around the 27th or 28th of 7 May when I called the number, the number at 8 Akron and told the -- there was two ladies. One 9 would say is this a leak, or do you have a 10 problem? And the first thing I said I think 11 told her it's a 60-ton problem. And then I was 12 transferred to the other lady. But in this case 13 it was pretty much automatic to the second lady. 14 I told her about the trough and so 15 forth, and I said, if we have a storm I'm bound 16 to get flooded there because of the angle that 17 the water's coming in and the 18 two-and-a-half-foot drop. So she said, we'll 19 get right on that, we don't want that to happen. 20 And she said that somebody would be out right 21 away, but no when showed up. That's all I can 22 tell you on that part. 23 When nothing happened then, let's see, I 24 think this would be the 2nd of June when I got a 25 1 hold of the police. And they said to call PUCO 2 on the 60-ton situation. But on the holes, they 3 said, that's a safety issue. So I let them know 4 I got in touch with Dominion on that. It was a 5 few days later that a small pickup came out and 6 packed up one of the holes. My wife had put 7 flags around the holes so people wouldn't fall 8 in and stuff. So when they dropped the level on 9 the trough that wasn't there, it was broken up 10 concrete block and so forth. 11 So I was just getting my card out of the 12 truck that says I have been to rehab and I told 13 him, I said, hey, there's an oil and gas 14 pipeline there, and there has to be dirt. So he 15 closed it up and they took off. I tried to get 16 the license number, but the license plate was 17 bent up, so I couldn't tell you much on that. 18 But I still couldn't get around. That's when 19 that happened. Anyway, the dirt that went in 20 there wasn't the color of my dirt, some of it 21 was very dark, and ours is lighter. So I 22 imagine they got it at different areas and so 23 forth. So that's what happened on lot 10. 24 Then about the middle of the month is 26 1 when we got two storms about five or six days 2 apart, and I got flooded both times. And then 3 being flooded again, the five trees that they 4 chopped off, they was used at the end of the 5 trough to spread out the water they was putting 6 in the line, so that slowed the water down and 7 spread the water out. Right there after the 8 second flood, that's when I put up the barrier 9 wall, which is very good with water. 10 Since that, I haven't been flooded, so 11 it didn't get through. The water goes around 12 the house and on down to the other places. A 13 lot of it, because of what they done there, goes 14 into my back yard, into the lot next door and so 15 forth. The one on the curve, he's been flooded 16 out about three times, because that ditch is 17 still not redone, and so forth. That's all I 18 can tell you on that. 19 My house and my neighbor and the next 20 house all had flood problems and me so, in my 21 opinion, was one that acted like a dam. The 22 water went up to about 32 inches, I think; in 23 other words, really close to the water hitting 24 the house. So that's what ruined the 27 1 underpinnings of the house. I just put a new 2 roof on the house shortly before this happened. 3 So it's a big frustration when you have a decent 4 home and all at once it is torn up and ruined by 5 somebody else. 6 The next house had a lot of water under 7 the house and had to get a pump, and so forth. 8 That room where he kept the utilities, and so 9 forth, he had got five inches of rain in there. 10 That was in the enclosed porch, but it wasn't on 11 the floor. They had the doors under the 12 platforms there. The other guy, I just seen how 13 his lot looked like a pond or something. That's 14 about as much as I can tell you on that. 15 That storm collector is right out my 16 west lot line, but not much water goes in that, 17 because the ditch doesn't feed into it anymore. 18 It sat right in front of my house. There isn't 19 part of that ditch there yet. So that's about 20 as much as I can tell you on what happened 21 there. 22 I couldn't get names, and I guess I 23 couldn't get a lawyer because, why, I don't know 24 on that. I pay my bills. So I guess my 28 1 credit's good, and so forth. I called Dominion 2 Energy at the 1-800-362-7557, which was the only 3 ten number and that's -- I tried to get the 4 number for the local person in charge. I knew 5 there was one, but I couldn't find out who it 6 was, to see if they couldn't help me. Then in 7 2019, you have got the paper there of Buckeye 8 Partners that does the pipeline work for Buckeye 9 Pipeline. 10 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Okay. Now are you 11 talking about -- of the documents that you 12 submitted on the 2nd of August, are you talking 13 about the one that's a letter dated August 19th 14 of 2019 from -- 15 MR. PUGSLEY: Yeah, that would be the 16 one. 17 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Okay. 18 MR. PUGSLEY: There was some confusion 19 there. They thought I was trying to claim that 20 they was the ones -- well, one gentleman there, 21 Mr. Allen, said Buckeye Partners, when they dug 22 the three holes, because they was digging right 23 beside the Buckeye Pipeline, so Mr. Allen was 24 there when they dug the holes. He didn't speak 29 1 to me, because I was in the hospital at that 2 time. 3 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: I'm anticipating 4 that this might be the document that the company 5 was going to bring something up about when we 6 got it. Is that right? 7 MR. PUGSLEY: Yeah, so -- 8 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: I'm asking 9 Mr. Kennedy. 10 MR. PUGSLEY: -- it has a line on there 11 that relates to Cindy Mack that told me about 12 what was happening there in 2019, when Dominion 13 claimed they was on my property in 2014 instead 14 of 2017. But the police department then and 15 Buckeye both said some information on that. So 16 the police department was the ones that told 17 them to fill the three holes. 18 MR. KENNEDY: Mr. Fullin, this is 19 Mr. Kennedy. The Company is going to object to 20 the admission and move to strike this letter 21 from Mr. White as hearsay. So you are correct 22 in your -- 23 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Okay. I was 24 anticipating that might come up, because I do 30 1 recognize this as what appears to be hearsay. 2 MR. PUGSLEY: Well, I never met 3 Mr. White, but that was where Mr. Allen -- they 4 work out of the same office. 5 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Are you -- you're 6 asking the Commission to take this letter, make 7 it part of the file, and use it as evidence 8 that -- what is the purpose that you want the 9 Commission to have this letter? 10 MR. PUGSLEY: It just relates to the 11 fact that they was on my land and dug the holes, 12 and so forth, which is what they done when 13 Mr. Allen was there. He had to be there, 14 because they was digging right beside the 15 Buckeye pipeline, so he could have that pipeline 16 shut off, and so forth. 17 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: What I'm hearing is 18 you want the Commission to understand that, in 19 this letter, Mr. White told you things about 20 whether the company was on your land or not? 21 MR. PUGSLEY: Well, they're the ones 22 that told me about Leslie Ruppert, that she was 23 the person was in charge of the area, I guess. 24 So that's one that I said was going to Akron on 31 1 my case. If you want, I can give you the phone 2 number. 3 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: There's a Leslie 4 Ruppert named in the letter with a phone number 5 next to it. 6 MR. PUGSLEY: Oh, is it, okay. 7 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Again, I was 8 anticipating this. I recognize this as being 9 hearsay, which means it's a statement provided 10 by someone who is not here today to testify, 11 can't be cross-examined. So we're submitting 12 it, we're happy to consider what is stated in 13 the letter as true, but you are not presenting 14 the person that made the statement as available 15 for cross-examination. 16 MR. PUGSLEY: Yeah, I -- 17 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: It's hearsay, and I 18 will say that I don't recognize any exception to 19 the hearsay rule. On the other hand he can -- 20 I'm making a ruling on the objection. Wait a 21 minute. I did anticipate this. My decision is 22 to allow the exhibit to be included as evidence 23 in the case, but I do recognize that it's 24 hearsay, and I expect that the Commission will 32 1 also recognize it as hearsay and decide to give 2 it whatever weight it decides to give it, in 3 terms of it being hearsay. But I'm not going to 4 exclude it. 5 MR. PUGSLEY: Like I said, without a 6 lawyer, I don't know all that stuff. 7 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: That's one reason 8 I'm ruling this way, because I don't want you, 9 as a non-lawyer, to feel like you did your best 10 to present what you had and you didn't have a 11 chance to present it. 12 So that's some of my thought process on 13 allowing it in, but I do see it being a problem 14 because it's hearsay. Because you are 15 presenting statements made by somebody else 16 that's not here to be cross-examined, and you 17 are expecting the Commission to weigh in the 18 truth of that statement. Nevertheless, I'm 19 going to allow that to be included with the 20 testimony you provide as evidence. 21 MR. PUGSLEY: There was another lady 22 here that works for Dominion. Her name is 23 Karen. Her office number is 609-433-6650, and 24 that letter from Mr. White and Mr. Allen, she 33 1 was after that letter. But I just told her to 2 call Buckeye Partners, and I gave her the 3 number, and then would have had all the 4 information that I had. That's what went on 5 there. I don't have all the information, but 6 Karen was the one what called me from Dominion 7 in Akron. 8 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: You're saying that 9 the Karen that you are talking about that called 10 you was the one calling from Dominion? 11 MR. PUGSLEY: Yeah. She was calling 12 from Akron, and she read the letter Mr. White 13 sent to me. As I said, I told her just to 14 relate to that phone number of Mr. White, and so 15 I don't know what happened then. So I don't 16 know whether she called or not, but that was the 17 letter. And Mr. White said he would tell her 18 the same thing as he told me. So that's all I 19 can tell you on that part. 20 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: I see on this letter 21 that there's some handwritten -- it seems to be 22 your handwriting. So the things that look to be 23 in your handwriting added to the letter are 24 things that you wrote on the letter? 34 1 MR. PUGSLEY: Yeah, relating to Cindy 2 Mack, because she's the one that told me 3 Dominion had change from 2017 to 2014 claiming 4 that they was on the land in 2014. But the 5 police department and Buckeye both was there. 6 And the police department, of course, required 7 them to fill the holes, because it was a safety 8 issue. 9 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Do you have anything 10 more that you wanted to add about trying to 11 convince the Commission about what happened with 12 the police, how Dominion became involved? 13 MR. PUGSLEY: How the police became 14 involved? 15 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Well, either, 16 anything you want to add about the whole 17 incident about how the police covered the holes 18 and it somehow got out -- 19 MR. PUGSLEY: I went to the police 20 station, and she told me about she was going to 21 send somebody out so that it wouldn't get 22 flooded and so forth -- 23 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Who is "she"? 24 MR. PUGSLEY: -- and that never 35 1 happened. And then I went to the police 2 station. That was about the 2nd of June. And I 3 told them about the 60 tons of dirt or more. 4 And they said to call PUCO on the three holes, 5 and so forth. They said that's a safety issue 6 and they could take care of that. That's when 7 that small truck started showing up. That was 8 done May the 2nd. And they went about four, 9 five days with that little truck filling those 10 holes. They didn't fill them completely. They 11 still had to have some dirt, half a ton, of a 12 thousand pounds, in order so that I would be 13 able to use the lawnmower. It's still got an 14 indentation there, but not like it did when that 15 dirt settled. 16 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: I just encourage you 17 to fill me in with anything that you want that 18 you haven't already said that helps me 19 understand any part of the case. And when you 20 are done with that, then I'm going to walk 21 through each of these photos and/or documents 22 that you presented, and we'll walk through 23 those. 24 But first, just fill me in with any part 36 1 of your side of the story as to what you want 2 the Commission to understand. If you have more 3 to add, this is your chance. 4 MR. PUGSLEY: The other ones is pictures 5 of where the flow of the water is. 6 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Okay. So now you 7 are describing some of these pictures. Let's do 8 that. So far we've had the discussion about the 9 first, which is the aerial picture. The next 10 page that I see -- 11 MR. PUGSLEY: The next picture is coming 12 from the road that -- 13 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Wait. I have to 14 know what we're talking about. You're talking 15 over me. 16 We already talked about the first 17 picture. That's the map that shows the lots. 18 The next thing I see is something that looks to 19 be a blank page with two holes that are -- 20 places where the holes got punched into it, and 21 that's received, by docketing, with an August 22 2nd stamp. 23 Do you even have a picture like that? 24 It also shows a red filing date -- or file 37 1 stamp. I think this was probably a page created 2 by docketing to show when this exhibit was 3 submitted. I don't know if you have that. I 4 think that might have been created by docket. 5 Do you have that? 6 MR. PUGSLEY: I just have the pictures 7 saying exhibit pictures 1 through 10. 8 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: We're not there yet. 9 I'm going to assume -- for the record, my 10 assumption is that page I'm talking about was 11 created to show when this information got 12 docketed. That seems to be the information 13 that's on it. 14 The next page is something that has my 15 name on it written in your handwriting with a 16 date 3-27-22, and there's more of your 17 handwriting describing things. And then to the 18 left is the list of -- one, two, three, four -- 19 five different businesses. In your handwriting 20 you say, these contractors won't talk to me and 21 you go on with other descriptions. Do you have 22 that -- 23 MR. PUGSLEY: Yeah, that's -- 24 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Do you want to 38 1 explain what that is? 2 MR. PUGSLEY: My wife talked to the one 3 person, I guess he was a helper, when they was 4 there digging. They said they was from Van 5 Wert. And a couple neighbors told me they 6 talked to the same -- well, one neighbor said 7 that the same guy had told him Van Wert, and the 8 other guy said he actually was in the 9 neighborhood, he had moved out, and they was in 10 the neighborhood. And he said that he had 11 talked to a guy that run the digging machine, 12 and he also said he was from Van Wert. I called 13 over to Van Wert to the ones that does the 14 excavating, and I guess there's five of them 15 there. They wouldn't tell me, they said that 16 without there being a law officer, an inspector 17 for a PUCO, so that's why I wrote that there. 18 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: The reason that you 19 are submitting this and having me consider it as 20 evidence is to show the people that you claim 21 that you contacted who wouldn't talk to you -- 22 MR. PUGSLEY: They wouldn't identify -- 23 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: -- who you 24 identified it was at the top. 39 1 MR. PUGSLEY: I pretty much understood 2 that it was supposed to be a subcontractor. So 3 that's all I know about. That they wouldn't go 4 any further. 5 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Okay. So I'm going 6 to go back to the first page. I'm identifying 7 that as Complainant's Exhibit Number 1, the one 8 with the map. 9 Then I'm identifying the one with the 10 five contractors listed as a separate page, that 11 I'm going to call Complainant's Exhibit Number 12 2. This is for the record, so when I refer to 13 the documents, if I do, in the order, we'll know 14 what's being referred to. 15 The letter that we already talked about 16 dated August the 19th, 2019, I'm identifying 17 that as Complainant's Exhibit Number 3. 18 Now we're coming to the first of the 19 ones that have photos on it that I've taken it 20 appears they might be taken at your house. So 21 the first one is your name, your address, it 22 says Exhibit Pic 1. 23 MR. PUGSLEY: Yeah, on picture one 24 coming towards the street, and it shows the 40 1 angle of where the trough is, and it explains it 2 underneath it, and so forth. 3 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: So you have an 4 explanation. That explanation is your 5 explanation of why you are submitting this 6 picture, what it purports to show, in your 7 opinion. Is that right? 8 MR. PUGSLEY: Yeah. That would be 9 right. 10 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: I'm considering 11 including -- 12 MR. PUGSLEY: I thought that would be 13 better than you trying to explain it. 14 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Okay. I'm 15 considering using all of these pictures together 16 as the next, Complainant's Exhibit 4, unless you 17 have some reason not to. The next picture is 18 marked Exhibit Pic 2, and it starts -- your 19 explanation starts out, these are trucks of the 20 five trees Dominion had cut off. 21 MR. PUGSLEY: Yeah, there's two pictures 22 relating to that. 23 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Okay. 24 MR. PUGSLEY: That's the trees that they 41 1 chopped and made the main road also. 2 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: The picture shows -- 3 it's hard to make out in the picture. I'm 4 looking at. But there's a big tree standing 5 there, and next to it is a row of what must be 6 pictures of the -- 7 MR. PUGSLEY: Yeah. That's the five 8 trees that stopped the water for flowing so 9 fast. And of it spreading out, that's why 10 that's there. 11 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: The next page 12 doesn't have a photo but I think it's a 13 continuation of the explanation based on the 14 other picture because it is marked page number 15 2, and the other is page number 1. So I gather 16 that's the continuation of the explanation of 17 the exhibit, and at the bottom you sign your 18 name and address. The next one after that is 19 another picture and another explanation. 20 There's another one after that with an 21 explanation. 22 MR. PUGSLEY: That shows where the -- 23 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: I'm including all 24 those as Complainant's Exhibit Number 4. 42 1 MR. PUGSLEY: There's a fifth picture 2 that shows a different angle on those tree 3 trunks and so forth, between 50 and 60 feet of 4 the tree trunks. It spread the water out and 5 slowed down a lot of the feed and the barrier 6 wall blocks it. I haven't been flooded since 7 I've had that up and the barrier wall up. 8 Picture 6 shows about the center of the trough 9 that goes down towards my house there. It 10 shows -- so there's the explanation on that. 11 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: When were all these 12 pictures taken? 13 MR. PUGSLEY: The what? 14 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Did you take these 15 pictures? 16 MR. PUGSLEY: Yeah. 17 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: When did you take 18 them? 19 MR. PUGSLEY: When? 20 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Yeah, approximately. 21 MR. PUGSLEY: Just when I started -- 22 just a short time when I told you that, what do 23 you call that outfit, the place with the 24 pictures and so forth. 43 1 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: You took these 2 relatively recently, within a few months of 3 today's hearing, to get ready to have exhibits 4 to bring to the hearing? So these were all 5 taken within the last month or two? 6 MR. PUGSLEY: I had planted a lot of 7 grass seed, so you didn't see how it looked 8 before, except in picture 7 where you can see 9 the lower there headed towards my house. And 10 that trough goes from, basically, the house on 11 lot 9. So it gets a pretty good flow there. 12 But those trees that turned into logs trickled 13 down quite a bit, and then the barrier fence 14 takes care of it real good. 15 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: As I look at these 16 pictures, I'm trying to understand what you are 17 telling me. These seem to be pictures that 18 you've taken to show the situation that your 19 property looks like nowadays. Since all of this 20 that you are describing has happened. This is 21 the current condition of the house, based on 22 what you consider the damage that was done? 23 MR. PUGSLEY: Yeah. 24 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Okay. Is that 44 1 right, is that the reason that you are 2 submitting these, so the Commission can have a 3 better picture of what it is -- 4 MR. PUGSLEY: Yeah. It just verifies 5 about all the damage on 10. 6 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: So it's verifying 7 the damage by showing a picture of what the 8 place looks like now -- 9 MR. PUGSLEY: Right. 10 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: -- various pictures, 11 various angles, as explained in your 12 explanations. 13 MR. PUGSLEY: Yeah. And then that 14 picture 9 shows the location of the three holes 15 originally. I might be able to see there are 16 still indentations there, and you see the side 17 yard, this hole over here, and then across the 18 hole is another one, that's where the angle goes 19 from that six-foot hole. 20 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Is there anything in 21 the pictures that helps the Commission 22 understand -- other than your own description of 23 what happened, is there anything about the 24 pictures that helps the Commission understand 45 1 how the damage came about? 2 MR. PUGSLEY: I thought the pictures 3 would be explanatory and the explanations under 4 it. 5 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: I suspect that 6 you're presenting all these, and we've gone 7 through them, because you want the Commission to 8 take these exhibits, which I have identified as 9 Complainant's Exhibits 1 through 4, you want me 10 to admit them into evidence before I make a 11 ruling on that, I'll allow the Company to make 12 any objections they want to make or otherwise do 13 that. I'm ready to rule on that, except I want 14 you to have whatever chance you want to take now 15 to continue with whatever more testimony you 16 want to provide. We've got your documentation 17 and we've heard your testimony. Do you have 18 anything else you want to add before I let the 19 Company's attorney cross-examine the testimony 20 that you provided? 21 MR. PUGSLEY: Only that Mr. Dent was 22 talking about 2253, and he said something about 23 the ditch, talking about all the ditch damage 24 that took place on lot 10. He never mentioned 46 1 the ditch in front of my house, and so forth. 2 And that's about all he seemed to think that all 3 the rest is hearsay or something. 4 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Mr. Dent has 5 submitted pretrial testimony. And when you are 6 finished presenting your side of the case, the 7 Company's going to, I assume, put Mr. Dent on 8 the stand. You will have a chance to 9 cross-examine him about the pre-filed testimony. 10 So you can ask the questions when he's 11 testifying. But for now -- 12 MR. PUGSLEY: I wouldn't know what else 13 to give you -- 14 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Okay. Again, I just 15 wanted to make sure we're -- that you have 16 completed your portion of what you want to 17 present before we move to the next part of the 18 hearing. That's all I'm trying to do. 19 MR. PUGSLEY: That's why I needed a 20 lawyer, but I don't know why I couldn't get one. 21 You have a Columbus Bar Association. I guess 22 there's nine or 10,000 lawyers, so I don't know 23 why. 24 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Thank you. I take 47 1 this, then, that you have presented what you 2 want to present. So I'm allowing Mr. Kennedy to 3 cross-examine you about anything related to what 4 you testified to today and/or question you about 5 any of the exhibits that you are entering for 6 the Commission's consideration. 7 MR. PUGSLEY: Well, I don't know what 8 else to say so -- 9 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Well, he's going to 10 ask you any questions that he might have. Wait 11 to hear what his question is, and try to answer 12 his questions. 13 MR. PUGSLEY: All right. 14 MR. KENNEDY: Good afternoon, 15 Mr. Pugsley. Mr. Fullin, we don't have any 16 cross-examination. We don't have any questions 17 for Mr. Pugsley. We did have our earlier 18 objection that you ruled upon hearsay on the 19 letter, and we'll reserve our position on that, 20 but we understand your ruling. As far as the 21 other exhibits go, we don't have any objections 22 to the other exhibits that Mr. Pugsley is 23 offering. 24 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Okay. With that 48 1 being the case, that means he doesn't have any 2 questions for you. And he's noted the 3 objections that he has to the exhibits. So at 4 this time I'm going to remember the earlier 5 ruling I made on the one and admit all of the 6 exhibits into the record at this time. 7 Again this your very final chance, Mr. 8 Pugsley, if you have anything else that you 9 wanted to add, this is your chance. If you 10 don't have anything -- when you are done and you 11 don't have anything else to say, it is going to 12 be the Company's turn to put on Mr. Dent. He 13 will present his testimony, and you can ask 14 questions. 15 Do you have anything else to add for 16 yourself before we do that? 17 MR. PUGSLEY: I didn't hear ya'. 18 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Do you have anything 19 else that you want to add before we move on to 20 the Company's side of the case? I've asked you 21 before -- 22 MR. PUGSLEY: I wouldn't know what else 23 to put on. The only other thing is people that 24 I talked to, but all I've got is phone numbers, 49 1 they don't like to give you their names. 2 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Okay. Thank you. 3 That being the case, I'll note for the record 4 that you rest, in terms of the presentation of 5 your evidence. And I will allow Mr. Kennedy to 6 call Mr. Dent -- do whatever he wants to do to 7 present his case, put it that way. 8 MR. KENNEDY: Thank you, Mr. Fullin. 9 Mr. Dent, are you able to hear us and speak now? 10 Just checking on that. 11 MR. DENT: Yes, I can hear you. 12 MR. KENNEDY: Dominion Energy Ohio would 13 like to call Mr. Dent to the stand, Mr. Fullin, 14 if you would like to swear him. 15 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: You can put your 16 hand back down, we're done swearing you in. You 17 are giving sworn testimony. Go ahead, 18 Mr. Kennedy. 19 JOE DENT 20 called as a witness by the Defendant, being 21 first duly sworn, testifies as follows: 22 DIRECT EXAMINATION 23 BY MR. KENNEDY: 24 Q. Mr. Dent, good afternoon. Do you have 50 1 in front of you a copy of your direct testimony, 2 it is titled, Direct Testimony of Joe Dent on 3 Behalf of the East Ohio Gas Company, D/B/A 4 Dominion Energy Ohio. It's called DEO Exhibit 5 1.0. And then attached to that were four 6 exhibits, DEO Exhibit 1.1 through DEO Exhibit 7 1.4. It was previously filed in this docket on 8 the Commission's Web site June 21st, 2022. 9 Do you have a copy of that exhibit, as I 10 have identified it, in front of you, Mr. Dent? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did you prepare this testimony, or was 13 it prepared under your supervision for this 14 case, Mr. Dent? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. I have a couple of clarifying questions 17 for you, Mr. Dent, on your testimony. 18 If you could please look at your 19 testimony on page 6 starting with question 25, 20 and let me know when you have reached that spot. 21 A. Yes, I'm there. 22 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: I'm there, too. 23 Q. In questions 25 through 29, which go on 24 to page 7, you discuss OUPS tickets -- and 51 1 that's O-U-P-S -- tickets that you reviewed. 2 And you mentioned a TransLore portal -- that's 3 T-R-A-N-S-L-O-R-E -- portal. 4 Can you please explain what the 5 TransLore portal allowed you to search? 6 A. Yes. TransLore, it's a system that 7 allows myself and other members of Dominion to 8 look at 811, or OUPS tickets, Ohio Utilities 9 Protection Service tickets, that have been 10 called in, whether it's for Dominion or other 11 parties called in tickets. That's basically the 12 function of it, so that we can see that 13 information for when people call in tickets of 14 where they're going to be digging or have dug. 15 Q. And Mr. Dent, just to clarify, what is 16 the time period that the TransLore database 17 allows you to search, I guess key word search; 18 how far back can you do that if you don't have a 19 ticket number? 20 A. I believe it's eight years from today's 21 date, so at this point it allows me to go back 22 to 2014. 23 Q. In question 29 you mentioned an OUPS 24 ticket from 2009 that's included on page 9 and 52 1 10 of Exhibit 1.3. 2 How were you able to get access to that 3 OUPS ticket prior to 2014? 4 A. I wouldn't normally be able to review 5 tickets before 2014, but in this case we had a 6 damage claim where somebody hit and damaged 7 Dominion back then, and we have a system that 8 maintains all the records for those damages. So 9 I had looked up any damages on Arcadia, you 10 know, from as far back as I could go, which was 11 including 2009, and I found that ticket number 12 in that claim file. And with that, I can 13 then -- if you have the ticket number, you can 14 go on TransLore and look at tickets before 2014, 15 but you have to have the ticket number. 16 Otherwise, all you get is back to 2014, if 17 you're just doing a street search. 18 Q. Thank you for clarification, Mr. Dent. 19 I had one other area around your direct 20 testimony that I would like to clarify. 21 If you could take a look at question 27, 22 which is on page 7 of your direct testimony -- 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. -- you refer on line 12 to a pipeline 53 1 marker for Buckeye Partners that was on or near 2 2253 Arcadia. 3 Based on your review of this claim, are 4 you familiar with what a Buckeye Partners 5 pipeline marker looks like? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Can you please describe what your 8 understanding is of what a Buckeye Partners 9 pipeline marker looks like? 10 A. It's a flat marker. Sometimes it could 11 be brown. But it's a yellow marker. It's 12 basically plastic, sometimes in the past it's 13 metal. 14 MR. PUGSLEY: The one from my property 15 is plastic, and they're about four or five feet 16 tall in the picture there. 17 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: It's not your turn 18 to ask him questions, but you'll get your turn 19 in a minute, you can bring it up then. 20 MR. PUGSLEY: Okay. 21 BY MR. KENNEDY: 22 Q. And, Mr. Dent, Buckeye Partners is 23 marking the location of their petroleum 24 pipelines, correct; it's a petroleum pipeline 54 1 company? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. In comparison, what does a DEO pipeline 4 marker look like? 5 A. Ours are also typically yellow and flat, 6 one-sided print. 7 Q. Mr. Pugsley submitted some pictures in 8 his exhibits. Were you able to review those? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. In two of the pictures, he identified a 11 reddish circular pole as a Dominion marker. Do 12 you believe that that pole is a DEO pipeline 13 marker? 14 A. I do not believe that it's a DEO 15 pipeline marker. I have never seen one, since 16 2009 when I began working at Dominion, I have 17 never seen one those colors or that shape. 18 Q. Thank you, Mr.Dent. 19 Besides those two clarifications, do you 20 believe that the testimony that was previously 21 filed is true and accurate, to the best of your 22 knowledge? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And if I were to ask you the same 55 1 questions that appear in the pre-filed testimony 2 today, you would provide the same answers? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Besides those two clarifications, do you 5 have any other corrections to your testimony? 6 A. I do not. 7 MR. KENNEDY: Thank you. Mr. Fullin -- 8 Attorney Examiner Fullin, the Company moves for 9 the admission of the previously-filed testimony, 10 DEO Exhibit 1.0 with attachments DEO Exhibits 11 1.1 through 1.4, subject to any questions that 12 Mr. Pugsley has or that you have, and we can 13 make Mr. Dent available for those questions at 14 this time. 15 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Mr. Pugsley, you 16 have a chance now to ask Mr. Dent anything about 17 the testimony that he provided, including 18 anything that he said today during today's 19 hearing. You don't have to ask him anything, 20 but if you have anything that you want to ask 21 him, this is your chance. 22 MR. PUGSLEY: Well, he said something 23 about the markers, but the only markers that 24 they had was kind of roughly triangled things. 56 1 So I don't know who put that in, but that's 2 whatever I was told, that that was the gas line 3 situation there. The other ones there that are 4 shown in the pictures, they was to Buckeye's 5 pipeline. 6 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: You're telling me 7 what it is that you were told and what you think 8 or what you did express in your exhibit. He's 9 just saying that he doesn't believe that that is 10 one of their pipeline markers. 11 So, again, at this point the idea is 12 that you are allowed to ask him questions. If 13 you have a question about how he came to the 14 belief that he has versus the belief that you 15 have, that's fine, you can ask him. But this 16 isn't the chance for you to just explain your 17 own exhibit. It's your chance to ask him about 18 his beliefs and what he said in his testimony. 19 So it should be in a question form, that you ask 20 him a question about his testimony. 21 MR. PUGSLEY: Well, the question is 22 that -- that about that 2253 Arcadia and that's 23 never related to where all the damage took place 24 that caused the flooding and -- 57 1 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Again, I -- 2 MR. PUGSLEY: -- and the unfilled holes 3 and all that stuff. And I'm certain that 4 Dominion knows who their subcontractor was. 5 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Again, you're just 6 telling me what your opinions are and what -- 7 this is your chance to ask him about what he 8 said. I don't hear any question. 9 MR. PUGSLEY: The only question, that he 10 said something about the ditch didn't exist or 11 something, and that's not what caused the flood. 12 But it certainly did exist. So that ditch had 13 been good for 37 years, there wasn't problems 14 for 37 years until they dug in there. So they 15 have to relate to that. 16 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Again, you're not a 17 lawyer, you haven't engaged in this kind of 18 proceeding. So I'm forgiving you for not being 19 able to formulate a question. 20 You already had your chance to provide 21 any information you wanted us to know. All 22 you're doing is providing more description of 23 your own understanding of the facts. Your time 24 to tell us about your understanding has come, 58 1 you did that already. If you don't have a 2 question for him about what he's provided for -- 3 MR. PUGSLEY: I was looking at the 4 papers here that they sent me and -- 5 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: That's what we are 6 talking about. I want to know what it is that 7 you disagree with, I want to know what you have 8 a question about for him to answer. 9 MR. PUGSLEY: Well, the -- on this lot 10 here, Mr. Dent must not have checked with the 11 police department when he related to my address, 12 and so forth. He didn't talk to me. If he had 13 talked to me, I could have showed him 14 everything. It must be like Joe Biden, because 15 I never seen him or anyone else from Dominion, 16 except the lady there in 2019, and the gentleman 17 that called me and told me about where my dirt 18 was in 2019. 19 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Mr. Pugsley, I 20 appreciate that you are being put in a position 21 you are not used to being put in, that you are 22 being asked to frame questions when, really, 23 what you have in mind is just having me 24 understand your position. I understand that, 59 1 because this isn't what you do all the time; 2 you're not familiar with how to frame the 3 question. 4 But, again, I'm kind of -- when we're 5 done with this testimony, then we're going to 6 talk about whether or not the parties want to 7 have a chance to present arguments about what 8 happened at today's hearing, I'll bring that up 9 in a minute and we can talk about that, and then 10 you will be given a chance to make whatever 11 arguments you want to make at that point. 12 Right now, I'm going to give you one 13 more chance, and if I don't really hear a 14 question for Mr. Dent, I'm going to bring the 15 cross-examination to a close, because I haven't 16 heard any questions asked of the witness. 17 One more chance, if there's something 18 that you want to ask Mr. Dent about his 19 testimony and how he came to have the opinions 20 that he has, you can ask him those kind of 21 questions. But if you're just going to tell me 22 how you feel about the case, then that's for a 23 different part of the case, that's not for now. 24 Do you have any questions for Mr. Dent? 60 1 MR. PUGSLEY: Well, I wouldn't know what 2 to say, so I guess I get screwed on this. 3 Anyway, do what you want, I guess. 4 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Okay. I'm hearing 5 that you don't have any more questions for 6 Mr. Dent about his testimony. 7 MR. PUGSLEY: It wouldn't do any good, I 8 don't think. 9 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: I'm prepared to 10 rule. I will allow Mr. Dent's testimony into 11 the record, both the pre-filed and what he's 12 testified to here today. I don't have any 13 questions for Mr. Dent. 14 MR. PUGSLEY: Yeah, so Dominion isn't 15 going to be responsible for the damage, is what 16 it looks like. So I end up with a house that's 17 ruined? 18 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Mr. Kennedy, do you 19 have anything further to present for the 20 Company? 21 MR. KENNEDY: Mr. Fullin, I just have 22 one redirect question to ask Mr. Dent. 23 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 24 BY MR. KENNEDY: 61 1 Q. Mr. Dent, Mr. Pugsley suggested that you 2 had not spoken with Mr. Pugsley in your review 3 of his claim. 4 Is that accurate, or did you have 5 conversations with Mr. Pugsley related to this 6 particular claim? 7 A. It's not accurate. I did, in fact, have 8 conversations with him about the claim, letting 9 him have an opportunity to explain to me 10 everything that happened, as well as asking for 11 any evidence that he had, documents and so 12 forth, and also asked him for any estimates for 13 property damage so I can get an idea of how much 14 the damage was, but I received nothing. 15 MR. KENNEDY: Thank you, Mr. Dent. 16 Mr. Fullin, with that redirect, we don't have 17 any additional questions. 18 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Thank you. Again, 19 I'll include that as testimony and admit it into 20 the record. 21 MR. PUGSLEY: Mr. Dent was talking about 22 the house and the damage where I told him that I 23 had an offer on it for $85,000. That was 24 including lot 10 and my home, and so forth. 62 1 Then I also said how about to replace the cost 2 of the house, which was approximately $100 a 3 square foot. I had no idea whether that was 4 right or wrong, but two different outfits that 5 have done a lot of remodeling work, both said it 6 runs about $100 a square foot, and the price 7 went up. That's where the second figure came 8 from, was replacement cost. 9 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Again, Mr. Pugsley, 10 you were given a chance earlier to present 11 anything that you -- 12 MR. PUGSLEY: I'm sorry, I'm not a 13 lawyer so -- 14 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: I understand. 15 MR. PUGSLEY: The most that I can do is 16 relate to if, you know -- 17 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Again, if you have 18 something to ask of Mr. Dent that relates to 19 what he just testified to -- 20 MR. PUGSLEY: That's all right. I guess 21 I'm done in anyway. It looks like there's 22 enough dishonesty there and anything they said 23 otherwise. 24 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: So we've admitted 63 1 the Complainant's testimony and exhibits and the 2 Company's testimony and exhibits. Mr. Kennedy, 3 does the Company have anything further? I think 4 I asked. If not, this is your chance, before we 5 close in terms of presentation of evidence and 6 begin to talk about whether we'll be briefs or 7 other kinds of arguments. 8 MR. KENNEDY: Mr. Fullin, thank you. 9 The Company does not have anything further to 10 add. 11 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Thank you. Then I 12 will say that we're finished with the 13 presentation of testimony of today's hearing. 14 And now I would like to maybe go off the record 15 for a minute and talk about the idea of briefs, 16 and we'll go back on the record with whatever 17 decision we make off the record about what 18 they're going to do as far as briefs in the 19 case, so now we can go off the record. 20 (Discussion off the record.) 21 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: It's going to take 22 approximately ten days for the transcript to 23 come in. I want both sides to have an 24 opportunity to review the transcript, submit the 64 1 briefs. I'm thinking maybe 40 days out might be 2 a good deadline for submitting briefs in the 3 case. But I'm open to other suggestions, if 4 either party has a preference. 5 MR. KENNEDY: Mr. Fullin, is that 40 6 days from today or from the filing of 7 transcript? 8 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: If we want to date 9 it from the date of the transcript, I'm 10 flexible, it could be 40. If we just want to 11 make it 30 days from the date the transcript is 12 filed in the docket, that would be fine with me. 13 We don't have to set an exact date. We'll wait 14 to see when it comes in. When I see it comes 15 in, I will contact Mr. Pugsley and let him know 16 that the transcript was been filed. He doesn't 17 have a computer, he's not going to be keeping 18 track of that. Or we can set an exact date 19 today. 20 MR. KENNEDY: The Company would ask, 21 given other cases that we have currently on the 22 docket, that we set the deadline 40 days from 23 the filing of the transcript, if that works for 24 you. 65 1 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Yes, that works for 2 me. I'm flexible on the number of days, as long 3 as it's within reason, and that is certainly 4 within reason. Rather than set an actual 5 deadline, I will make a ruling that we will have 6 briefs in the case, and we're only going to have 7 one set of initial briefs, and they will be due 8 40 days after the date that the transcript is 9 filed in the Commission's docket. 10 Mr. Pugsley, when that happens, when the 11 transcript is filed in the docket -- I will be 12 watching for it. When it happens, I will call 13 you and tell you that the transcript is filed in 14 the docket. I will tell you the date it's 15 available, and you will have 40 days from that 16 date to file this document that we're talking 17 about. 18 MR. PUGSLEY: Again. 19 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: It's recommended -- 20 you can draft it any way you want to do it. You 21 can say whatever you want to say, but the 22 recommendation is, the reason why we're waiting 23 is so you might get a chance to read what took 24 place today and use it. And when you make this 66 1 document to me, you include references to where 2 in the transcript what you are talking about was 3 covered. That's up to you, but that's the 4 reason we're waiting this period of time, so 5 that you get the chance to review the document 6 and help the Commission understand what got 7 presented today that you want them to pay 8 special attention to. 9 MR. PUGSLEY: I will do whatever I can. 10 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: That's the ruling. 11 Just in terms of moving on, I will make a ruling 12 that we will have briefs in the case, and they 13 will be due 40 days after the date that the 14 transcript from today's hearing gets docketed in 15 the Commission's docket file. And, like I said, 16 I will be in touch with Mr. Pugsley so that he's 17 aware of those dates and deadlines when the time 18 comes. 19 Is there's anything else that we need to 20 cover before I bring this to a close? 21 MR. KENNEDY: No, Your Honor. 22 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Anything, 23 Mr. Pugsley, that you want to bring up right 24 now? 67 1 MR. PUGSLEY: Nothing that I can think 2 of. 3 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: I thank you, 4 everyone, for their participation today, and I 5 will adjourn this hearing. 6 Mr. Pugsley, I'll be in touch would you 7 when the transcript comes in and give you the 8 countdown for how many days you to have turn in 9 your brief. And I thank everyone, again, and 10 I'll bring this to a close and look forward to 11 receiving the briefs. 12 -=O=- 13 Thereupon, the proceedings of August 14 9, 2022, were concluded at 2:41 p.m. 15 -=O=- 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 68 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I, Carmen G. Maley, a stenographic 3 court reporter and notary public in and for the 4 State of Ohio, do hereby certify that the 5 foregoing proceedings were taken down by me 6 stenographically and that the foregoing 7 transcript of such proceedings is a full, true, 8 and correct transcript of my stenographic notes 9 as so taken. 10 I do further certify that I was called 11 there in the capacity of a court reporter and am 12 not otherwise interested in this proceeding. 13 In witness whereof, I have hereunto 14 set my hand at Columbus, Ohio, on this 23rd day 15 of August, 2022. 16 17 18 19 20 21 Carmen G. Maley 22 Notary Public, State of Ohio 23 My commission expires: August 24, 2024 24