1 THE PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION OF OHIO 2 - - - 3 In the Matter of a Request : by the Ohio Department of : 4 Transportation for an : Case No. Exemption from Stopping : 17-915-RR-RCP 5 for School Buses and : Hazardous Materials Vehicles : 6 at the State Route 93/Adamsville: Road Grade Crossing in : 7 Muskingum County. : 8 - - - 9 10 PROCEEDINGS 11 Before Jim Lynn, Attorney Examiner, held at the 12 Avondale Youth Center, 4155 Roseville Road, 13 Zanesville, Ohio on Tuesday, May 16, 2017, at 14 1:00 P.M. 15 16 - - - 17 18 19 20 21 22 Armstrong & Okey, Inc. 222 East Town Street, 2nd Floor 23 Columbus, Ohio 43215 (614) 224-9481 - (800) 223-9481 24 - - - 25 ARMSTRONG & OKEY, INC., Columbus, Ohio (614)224-9481 2 1 INDEX TO WITNESSES 2 - - - 3 Page Douglas Morgan 4 4 Debbie Reed 6 5 James Creech 9 6 Michael Connor 11 7 Scott Dunbar 16 8 9 10 11 - - - 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ARMSTRONG & OKEY, INC., Columbus, Ohio (614)224-9481 3 1 Tuesday Afternoon, 2 May 16, 2017. 3 - - - 4 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: The Public 5 Utilities Commission of Ohio and assigned for a 6 hearing at this time and place Case No. 7 17-915-RR-RCP In the Matter of a Request by the 8 Ohio Department of Transportation for an 9 Exemption for School Buses and Certain Hazardous 10 Materials Vehicles from Stopping at the State 11 Route 93/Adamsville Road Grade Crossing in 12 Muskingum County. 13 I am Jim Lynn, the Attorney Examiner 14 assigned to hear this case. The purpose of our 15 hearing today is to receive public comments 16 regarding the request made by ODOT. Your 17 testimony will be considered part of 18 the official record for this case and it will be 19 reviewed by the Commission before they make 20 their final decision. 21 I will start by calling all 22 the witnesses here, and it shouldn't be too hard 23 to get everybody fit in. 24 The court reporter will record their 25 statements, so please speak plainly and clearly, ARMSTRONG & OKEY, INC., Columbus, Ohio (614)224-9481 4 1 so the reporter can accurately reflect your 2 comments. I think it's quiet enough in here 3 that we will have no problem hearing. 4 Please spell your name and state 5 your address, and tell the reporter why you 6 think the request should or should not be 7 granted. I am assuming you are all here in 8 favor of it. But, if you are not at any rate 9 speak up. And then I may ask you some questions 10 after you have finished your testimony. 11 When you give your testimony I will 12 swear you in. And, let's see. And that will 13 will be about it. 14 For our first witness we will call 15 Mr. Doug Morgan from ODOT who submitted the 16 request on behalf of the schools, and what would 17 you like to say about why the request was made 18 and any other details about the crossing. 19 (WITNESS SWORN) 20 - - - 21 DOUGLAS N. MORGAN 22 called as a witness, being first duly sworn, 23 testified as follows; 24 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Go ahead. 25 MR. MORGAN: My name is Doug Morgan, ARMSTRONG & OKEY, INC., Columbus, Ohio (614)224-9481 5 1 I work for the Ohio Department of Transportation 2 in District 5. 3 Back in March I received a request 4 from the city or Crooksville School District to 5 see about getting an exemption for the crossing 6 here in Avondale. 7 It's been abandoned by the railroad 8 company. It's currently under jurisdiction of 9 ORDC. And the Scenic Railway is utilizing it at 10 this time. 11 And so I looked into seeing what an 12 exemption was and what needed to happen in order 13 to go that direction. And based on our state 14 route out there the traffic we have, which is 15 around 9,000 cars a day, and trucks included, 16 and it being abandoned railroad with limited 17 crossing at this time. 18 There was concern for safety of the 19 school buses with school buses having to stop 20 right now and vehicles not used to people 21 stopping since there is not very many rails that 22 cross at this time. 23 So, upon the request I looked into 24 it and based on the State Ohio Department of 25 Transportation we would approve the exemption ARMSTRONG & OKEY, INC., Columbus, Ohio (614)224-9481 6 1 for their site under current conditions with the 2 traffic that we have been told would be on 3 the rails at this time. 4 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Thank you, Mr. 5 Morgan. 6 I will move on to other witnesses. 7 If I have any other questions I will let you 8 know. Thank you. 9 Next we will go to the folks from 10 the school district. And Debbie Reed, I 11 believe. 12 MS. REED: Yes, Debbie Reed. 13 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Would you state 14 your name and who you work for and you address, 15 and so forth? 16 MS. REED: Okay. Debbie Reed. And 17 that's Crooksville Schools. 4065 Ceramic Way, 18 Crooksville, Ohio. 19 (WITNESS SWORN) 20 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Please go ahead 21 and explain why you -- I assume it was you who 22 contacted Mr. Morgan about the exemption? 23 MS. REED: Actually James Creech is 24 the one who made the contact. 25 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: You both will be ARMSTRONG & OKEY, INC., Columbus, Ohio (614)224-9481 7 1 able to testify. But, please add whatever 2 comments you have about the issue of why you 3 believe an exemption would be needed here. 4 MS. REED: Well, all 5 the transportation vehicles are pupil 6 transportation vehicles. 7 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: So school buses? 8 MS. REED: Which includes school 9 buses, our school Suburban, our school truck. 10 They are all three used for pupil transportation 11 from time-to-time. 12 They have to stop at any railway 13 crossing. And any time a vehicle, one of our 14 vehicles stops on the highway like that it just 15 puts that vehicle in jeopardy of being involved 16 in an accident. And we realized that this 17 railroad is not actually active with train 18 traffic, so if it could be exempted it would be 19 in the best interest actually of all the school 20 districts in the area that use that crossing. 21 EXAMINATION 22 By the Attorney Examiner: 23 Q. Have there been any collisions up to 24 this point between vehicles and buses? 25 A. Not that I know of. ARMSTRONG & OKEY, INC., Columbus, Ohio (614)224-9481 8 1 Q. But the drivers are commenting on 2 that saying, well, somebody nearly ran into me? 3 A. Yes. Mainly with our school's 4 Suburban and the pick-up truck. 5 Q. And they are -- 6 A. They are marked as transportation, 7 school transportation vehicles, and they have to 8 make the stop. 9 Q. So, but, there are students in those 10 vehicles? 11 A. We have to stop even if we don't 12 have students. 13 Q. Because it's a school vehicle? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. And for the record you were 16 mentioning Suburban. That's a Chevrolet 17 Suburban? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. At first I didn't quite understand 20 what you were referring to. 21 A. I am sorry. 22 Q. Any other thoughts then? 23 A. I don't believe so. 24 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Okay. Move on 25 to the gentleman from the schools. And your ARMSTRONG & OKEY, INC., Columbus, Ohio (614)224-9481 9 1 name and address and I will swear you in, please 2 (WITNESS SWORN) 3 - - - 4 JAMES CREECH 5 called as a witness, being first duly sworn, 6 testified as follows: 7 EXAMINATION 8 By the Attorney Examiner: 9 Q. Your name and who you are? 10 A. My name is James Creech. Work with 11 Crooksville Schools. 12 Q. And, Mr. Creech, what's your role 13 there at the schools? 14 A. I am actually a mechanic and I train 15 bus drivers. 16 Q. All right. 17 A. And I was talking with the bus 18 driver that makes this regular route and he 19 stated the other day when he stopped here a semi 20 went blowing right by him while he was stopped 21 at the tracks. So and I agree as well that 22 whenever the Suburban specifically or the Ford 23 F-250 four-door or even though there is a sign 24 on the back that we stop at all railroads, we 25 are not custom vehicles, it's dangerous at any ARMSTRONG & OKEY, INC., Columbus, Ohio (614)224-9481 10 1 railroad, but one that is not active, one that 2 has been abandoned just puts the danger higher 3 of all of our vehicles and children. 4 Q. How many of your buses go over this 5 particular crossing, either of them. Do you 6 have any idea? 7 MS. REED: We have one bus that 8 crosses four times a day. 9 Q. All right. I understand. 10 A. Not counting field trips, multiple 11 field trips up this way. 12 Q. Any other thoughts, Mr. Creech, 13 beyond what you said? 14 A. I would say just with it being 15 abandoned it would be much safer for the bus, 16 for the children, you know, because of a couple 17 close calls we have had. 18 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Thank you. We 19 will move on to two gentlemen from the railroad. 20 I appreciate that. 21 Let's go with Mr. Connor. Go with 22 you first. 23 (WITNESS SWORN) 24 - - - 25 MICHAEL J. CONNOR ARMSTRONG & OKEY, INC., Columbus, Ohio (614)224-9481 11 1 called as a witness, being first duly sworn, 2 testified as follows: 3 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: If you could 4 indicate your name and address and so on. 5 MR. CONNOR: Michael J. Connor, 1810 6 North Wooster Avenue, Dover 44622. 7 I am a retired railroad officer, but 8 I am serving as the Vice President marketing of 9 the Zanesville & Western Railway. 10 The Zanesville & Western Scenic 11 Railway contracted with the owner of the rail 12 line, the State of Ohio, Ohio Rail Development 13 Commission, several years ago to operate a 14 limited passenger excursion service, and that is 15 based out of Mt. Perry. The railroad is about 16 15 miles long. It's not been run in regular 17 freight service for about a decade and a half. 18 I want to correct a misunderstanding 19 of use. The railroad is not abandoned. 20 Abandoned is a legal format, really requires the 21 Surface Transportation Board in Washington to 22 make a decision. So, it is out of service, but 23 not abandoned. And that creates I think an 24 issue. 25 Just besides running the passenger ARMSTRONG & OKEY, INC., Columbus, Ohio (614)224-9481 12 1 excursion operation we, the Zanesville & Western 2 Scenic Railway, caused the Zanesville & Western 3 Railway to be incorporated two years ago for 4 the purpose of actually ultimately reopening the 5 line for freight service. 6 That is not a fast process. First 7 of all we have to determine the customer demand, 8 and then there is basically the work getting the 9 railroad restored. The rails are all there. The 10 ties are generally in mixed condition. 11 I was with the Ohio Central railroad 12 from 1988 until 2006. We at the time were the 13 operator and put quite a bit of ties and 14 surfacing into the railroad. It's currently 15 growing a great crop of grass and trees, but 16 those too can be removed as part of the plan. 17 The Z&W, Zanesville & Western 18 Railway, has already been working with 19 contractors and others to put in motion the work 20 needed to be done to restore it. I do not have 21 a schedule. 22 I have made customer calls, however, 23 to start the process of letting the potential 24 users -- we have identified 67 of them already. 25 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: You are ARMSTRONG & OKEY, INC., Columbus, Ohio (614)224-9481 13 1 referring to freight service? 2 MR. CONNOR: Freight customers, 3 excuse me. The first one is right at the 4 crossing. It would be the Carter Lumber 5 Company. And we will probably open the railroad 6 in segments as we proceed west to remove the 7 growth and to get other things back in shape. 8 So I think the really good news here 9 is that those disappearing railroad blues that 10 are unfortunately affecting the railroad 11 industry nationwide are happening here. It has 12 a chance of coming back to life and helping to 13 support the job creation in Muskingum and Perry 14 Counties. 15 We do not oppose creating the -- 16 making this a -- changing the nature of 17 the crossing so long as nothing that is done 18 will stand in the way of bringing the freight 19 service back that is needed. 20 Several things could be done. This 21 will be a low speed railroad when it reopens. 22 I invision it probably 10 miles an hour, which 23 is FRA track standard 1. We clearly could flag 24 for the time being the crossing. 25 And, of course, there will be ARMSTRONG & OKEY, INC., Columbus, Ohio (614)224-9481 14 1 cross-bucks and so on that will be in place. 2 EXAMINATION 3 By the Attorney Examiner: 4 Q. Mr. Connor, then you are indicating 5 the Zanesville & Western has an excursions 6 division, or how -- 7 A. It's a separate -- legally separate 8 company, but it shares officers and shares 9 equipment. 10 Q. And then the Zanesville & Western 11 also will eventually you are saying will provide 12 freight service? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Presently how many of the excursion 15 trains use that track say annually, and what 16 times of the year do they use it? 17 A. Well, none of them operate over the 18 crossing in question. The railroad is about 15 19 miles long. They go about 10 miles west of here 20 at Mt. Perry. About three miles of the railroad 21 has been restored, i.e., brush, grass, et cetera 22 have been cleared. I think there is at least 23 one public crossing that we are working on 24 getting that back open out there. 25 Q. So you are indicating then the ARMSTRONG & OKEY, INC., Columbus, Ohio (614)224-9481 15 1 excursion service, will it ever use the crossing 2 that is at issue, one that is at State Route 93 3 and Adamsville Road? 4 A. That was a long time ago. 5 Q. But it doesn't presently? 6 A. Presently it doesn't. That would be 7 up to the -- basically it's what the people want 8 to see. 9 Q. Then you are indicating you have a 10 feel for when freight service might begin? 11 A. I think within the next two years. 12 Q. And you are anticipating, you said 13 it would be a low speed crossing like 10 miles 14 per hour? 15 A. Right. Our work will be the retail 16 end of freight railroading. We are the ones 17 that will deliver the cars to the customer's 18 sidings and pull them. So there is not going to 19 be trains thundering through the night from 20 Cleveland to Chicago. 21 Q. And you mentioned that you were 22 interested or open to having someone flag at the 23 crossing when trains would cross there? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Okay. And at this point, so again ARMSTRONG & OKEY, INC., Columbus, Ohio (614)224-9481 16 1 you said maybe two years or so before freight 2 service could be started? 3 A. It all depends on how things go. 4 Q. Thank you. 5 A. And we will open the railroad 6 probably in segments which means that two-year 7 line that I quoted, I was thinking in terms of 8 the whole thing. This one is a mile from the 9 main interchange with the outside world. 10 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Thank you. 11 (WITNESS SWORN) 12 - - - 13 SCOTT DUNBAR 14 called as a witness, being first duly sworn, 15 testified as follows: 16 EXAMINATION 17 By the Attorney Examiner: 18 Q. If you could indicate your name. 19 A. Scott Dunbar. 20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dunbar. And your 21 role with the railroad? 22 A. I am the Vice President of the 23 scenic railroad and of the freight railroad. 24 Q. What can you add about this request 25 that was made? ARMSTRONG & OKEY, INC., Columbus, Ohio (614)224-9481 17 1 A. What is going on and moving forward? 2 Q. Well, yes. I mean, the fact, you 3 know, again I would ask, you can indicate too, 4 how many trains cross this track, how frequently 5 it might be used. You are from the scenic 6 railroad respect. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Tell me a little bit more about 9 that. 10 A. The scenic railroad is over toward 11 Mt. Perry. It is a segment of track that is 12 opened there. This is our attachment to the 13 outside world coming down to that switch into 14 the Ohio Central, Ohio Southern I believe that 15 is. And this is our connection to the world. 16 Q. That is this crossing? 17 A. The crossing and a mile to the east. 18 Q. I see. Connection to other miles of 19 track, to other track that's owned by the other 20 companies? 21 A. Correct. That is their interchange. 22 Q. And when you make that comment 23 about connecting to the outside world, is it 24 from the standpoint of the scenic railroad using 25 that ultimately, perhaps? ARMSTRONG & OKEY, INC., Columbus, Ohio (614)224-9481 18 1 A. Basically both. 2 Q. You say both, the scenic as well as 3 the freight? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And again, just to repeat what Mr. 6 Connor said, but presently then there are none 7 of the excursion trains using this crossing? 8 A. But -- 9 Q. But you are indicating it could 10 happen in the future? 11 A. It could happen in the future, yes. 12 Q. Okay. And just as Mr. Connor 13 indicated the possibility or likelihood of 14 flagging at the crossing, do you anticipate that 15 would happen as well? 16 A. We would want that to happen just 17 for safety factors. 18 Q. You would want it for the safety 19 factors? 20 A. Yes. We would be concerned about 21 opening the crossing up at any time. People are 22 not used to anything going across there. 23 We are very, very protective at first. I am 24 sure as time goes on we will make a change, but 25 looking at it right now that would be our first ARMSTRONG & OKEY, INC., Columbus, Ohio (614)224-9481 19 1 move to protect the crossing. 2 Q. And do you have any anticipation of 3 how many trains from the excursion or the scenic 4 railroad would actually use that crossing? 5 A. At this point in time there is no 6 plans for that. 7 Q. No plans to go that far on the 8 track? 9 A. Yes. What we discovered, half an 10 hour for our rides is I would say kind of 11 the maximum people want to go. So you get too 12 far down the track the kids start screaming and 13 everything else. So the shorter the better. 14 Q. So basically they go one direction 15 then the other. They don't cross the crossing 16 and perhaps -- well, you are indicating they may 17 not so -- 18 A. We never use it for that. It would 19 be our way to get equipment in and get equipment 20 out. 21 Q. But as far as the excursion part of 22 it -- 23 A. No. We are not looking to come over 24 that crossing any time in the future. 25 Q. So because you are actually not ARMSTRONG & OKEY, INC., Columbus, Ohio (614)224-9481 20 1 using the crossing that is at issue you would 2 not have any of the customers of your train 3 making any comments about, you know, they 4 observed a near collision between a school bus 5 and other vehicle. They never would have come 6 this far up the track I guess; correct? 7 A. We have crossed the crossing in 8 years past. We moved equipment across it, but 9 we do use a flagger to make sure traffic 10 stopped. We protect the crossing very heavily. 11 Q. When you say we use the track, that 12 would be the scenic or excursion? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Mr. Connor. 15 MR. CONNOR: If I can make a 16 comment. When our conductors are there there is 17 also a train there, and the train acts as a 18 pretty good standard for drivers to see that 19 maybe they better stop. So I think most of the 20 incidents connected with potential rear ending 21 are when there is nothing at the crossing. 22 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Thank you. I 23 appreciate that comment. Nonetheless I also 24 appreciate that you are interested in doing the 25 flagging as well whenever the crossing might be ARMSTRONG & OKEY, INC., Columbus, Ohio (614)224-9481 21 1 used. It would certainly be a plus, because 2 what you are telling me now there is just 3 cross-bucks at the track; is that right? 4 MR. CONNOR: Yes, sir. 5 ATTORNEY EXAMINER: Okay. I want to 6 thank everyone for being here today. Is there 7 anyone else that has any additional comments to 8 add? 9 If not, anyone else at all? Okay. 10 Thank's so much for taking the time to come. 11 This is information that we needed. 12 And have a good afternoon. We will 13 close the hearing then. Thank you. 14 (At 1:15 A.M. the hearing was 15 concluded) 16 - - - 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ARMSTRONG & OKEY, INC., Columbus, Ohio (614)224-9481 22 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I do hereby certify that the foregoing is a true and correct transcript of the 3 proceedings taken by me in this matter on May 16, 2017, and carefully compared with my 4 original stenographic notes. 5 __________________________ 6 Michael O. Spencer, Registered Professional 7 Reporter. 8 - - - 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ARMSTRONG & OKEY, INC., Columbus, Ohio (614)224-9481